2 more REAs BITE THE DUST

Great job moving.forward! When one tells you u.can't u just keep.moving.forward! Lol unethical haha
That's what im focusing on too fsbo seems to be a little more easy lol good luck

Great job on trying to get agents. They have all said it that it will probably take a handful or "wrong" agents to get to the "right" ones. So just keep on trucking and you will get that awesome agent you're seeking. Also, great job on your FSBO leads, I read some other posts of yours in which you seem to be doing pretty amazing.

I also am currently working together with 2 diff agents. One of them has worked with investors before so he's used to what I'm asking. The problem is though we plan on starting with wholesaling and one agent already told me he needs POF to be able to submit offers for us.

Maybe I'll just stick to FSBO's for now and see if I can get some killer deals through that, as I know most of them come from private owners.
Time to go super hard on marketing!

Hello Shirley,

That goes to shows all of US, that we still have uneducated RE Agents with License. Althought, NOT ALL, but mostly the one that own the company. I had met several like those, but I kept moving, and found now several ones that are investors paradise! Thanks for sharing this with all of us.

Great Job Shirley-- keep it up. I'm not sure if you saw the last comment I posted on your "other" post about this a couuple days ago... I think it had helpful info on the subject
(I'll try to repost it here a bit later).

FYI, my agent ended up being Century 21.

Gabriel,

Don't give up because you don't have a POF. I do one every 6 months and my agent reuses it, whenever it is called for. Search POF/ Proof of Funds on this site-- I know it's mentioned several times in the RBBP thread with a Table of Contents. There are sites we an go to to get our POF's-- no nonsense. I just put Clark County as the property address and use $255,000 as the dollar amount. It helps.

Hey Shirley, I'll trade my "That's Illegal" agent card for your "It Can't Be Done" agent card.

Seriously though, I've seem to have better luck with agents that aren't part of a big chain. The smaller 1 broker, 3 agents type of agencies seem to be more open-minded to our criteria. At least that's what I've seen so far in my area.
I'm still fishing around too. Waiting on my latest agent to perform, supposed to be getting my 90 Cash purchases list today. We'll see.

Good luck! You just have to keep tossing them aside until you find one that sticks.
Don't forget that you might want to retain a few that may have individual niches that you can utilize.

Hey, I just talked to my Realtor, she will work with you also.She is licensed in NC and SC, she lives in Rock Hill, but said the distance wasnt a problem. So if your interested , she is ready for you. She knows exactly what we do , she is great and she loves alot of offers.
I will send you a message on Facebook with her number. She has your name and is looking forward to talking with you and getting you set - up.

Hope this helps

Curtis Fillers
(Charlotte,NC)

Thank you so much. I got the information about her. Would I have to use her title company as well?

Shirley

Ok, we'll trade but we'll still be getting the same answer.. LOL. I hope the one who is supposed to send you the cash sales doesn't talk to his broker first. Those guys control every move their agents make evidently! That's too much like a J.O.B.

Shirley

Curtis, how awesome of you!

And Shirley, if I may butt in.... the title company is often dictated by the seller. At least here it is seldom left to the buyer's request. So no worries.

woo-hoo, saved by the DG Team!

I just got an email from the VP/Associate Broker that works with the one who said it was unethical and here is her email verbatum:

From: Carolann Newton
To: sphi99@****
Cc: Ty Carey ; Renade Helton
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2012 11:37 AM
Subject: FW: 409 Boulevard

Shirley:

I just wanted to clear the air on the issues that we have after consulting an Attorney yesterday.

As Realtors we have to take a code of ethics to practice within the requirements the National Association of Realtors has set for this designation. Under these guidelines it is unethical to write a contract for a Buyer that is not actually going to purchase the property. Also it is illegal for any Realtor to write a contract without all fields of the contract being filled out prior to the customer/clients signature and to present the same earnest money check on multiple offers as you indicated below is considered check fraud. These are just a few reasons we have advised our Realtors not to work under the below guidelines.

However, many of our Realtors including myself represent Investors often, they allow us to direct them as to the best way to practice business to ensure we are within the legal and ethical guidelines set before us as Realtors.

Sincerely yours,
Carolann Newton
VP, Training/Associate Broker
Jackson Stanley Realtors

Carey is the attorney they consulted. The statement about not filling out contracts completely was entirely off in left field. I told her that to save time and paperwork, she could make copies of the purchase agreements and fill in the pertinent fields when an offer is made.. I didn't say anything about using contracts that were not filled out. Also I told her in so many words that she could use my copy of the earnest money check until such time as an offer is accepted, explaining that not all offers are accepted. So they will all be getting a reply from me, including the attorney. I am so furious right now!!!!

Shirley

Like Tina said , you can use whatever Co or attorney you would like.

Let me know how it goes.

Curtis Fillers
(Charlotte,NC)

Thats scary Shirley, knowing that so many Realtors and Attorneys are clueless.

Curtis Fillers
(Charlotte,NC)

Yes, it is scary and I am writing a reply to the email right now and I will use that very statement as my final sentence. thank you! Here is my reply and before I send it, please, anyone, let me know if I said anything that needs to be tweaked! I'm just so upset with all of the right now, I could just scream!

THIS IS MY REPLY:

Carolann,

Apparently, the information in my email explaining how investors work with realtors was not understood by the person receiving the email. When you put a property under contract, regardless of whether you're going to flip or hold, you have an equitable interest in that property and you can keep it, sell it or assign your equitable interest to anyone anywhere.

As far as using contracts that are not filled out, that is NOT what my email said. Obviously you did not read my email. What I said was to save time and paperwork (for the agent who apparently doesn't want to take the time to write 25 offers a week) a copy of the purchase agreement could be used as a template for the agent. That is for the AGENT'S benefit only. The information that will stay the same (my name for one) could be on the copy of the purchase agreement. WHEN an offer is accepted, that contract will be filled out in its entirety and signed at that time. There was no mention of using a contract that is not signed. Any moron knows that if it is not signed, it is not a contract.

There is no check fraud involved either. When an investor makes multiple offers a week, the copy of the check is just that. It is a copy of the actual check that the agent is holding in escrow for the offer that IS accepted. When an offer IS accepted, the actual check is released WITH the contract. An investor who makes numerous offers is not expected to write a new check for all those offers. The one in escrow is the one used when one offer is accepted. THEN and only then, the investor can write a new check.

What part of anything I said is unethical or illegal. Show me where to find it and I might believe you. It is really scary knowing that so many realtors and attorneys in this city are clueless.

Sincerely,
Shirley Phillips
Investor

Thank you too for all your advice and input!! It's a learning process, but right now I'm pretty sure I know more than these attorneys or realtors!!

Shirley

That was a good letter Shirley.

Curtis Fillers
(Charlotte,NC)

Personally I think you're wasting your time with these folks Shirley. They went to their attorney with heresy to speak of instead of coming back to you for clarification.
Apparently our investing concepts are unheard of for them. With it being something unknown for them, they got scared and ran to their attorney instead of thinking it through.
I don't know, even if this does work out, I'd always be second guessing their motives throughout every deal.
Just my opinion.

But I revised it... I'm telling you.. I'm riled up!! Here is the revised edition:
Carolann,

Apparently, the information in my email explaining how investors work with realtors was not understood by the person receiving the email. When you put a property under contract, regardless of whether you're going to flip it or hold it, you have an equitable interest in that property and you can keep it, sell it or assign your equitable interest to anyone anywhere. Nowhere in my email did I say I was writing a contract for a buyer who was not actually going to buy the property. I AM the buyer/investor who controls the paperwork. There is a contract between me (and/or my assigns) and the seller. I will then write a contract to an end buyer who IS going to buy the property. Or I might assign that contract to an investor/rehabber. Either way, it's perfectly legal and perfectly ethical because all parties know I am an investor and I get paid. Why would I write a contract with anyone who doesn't want to buy the property? I don't know how much more elementary I can get to explain this.

As far as using contracts that are not filled out, that is NOT what my email said. Obviously you did not read my email. What I said was to save time and paperwork (for the agent who apparently doesn't want to take the time to write 25 offers a week) a copy of the purchase agreement could be used as a template for the agent. That is for the AGENT'S benefit only. The information that will stay the same (my name for one) could be on the copy of the purchase agreement. WHEN an offer is accepted, that contract will be filled out in its entirety and signed at that time. There was no mention of using a contract that is not signed. Any moron knows that if it is not signed, it is not a contract.

There is no check fraud involved either. When an investor makes multiple offers a week, the copy of the check is just that. It is a copy of the actual check that the agent is holding in escrow for the offer that IS accepted. When an offer IS accepted, the actual check is released WITH the contract. An investor who makes numerous offers per week is not expected to write a new check for all those offers. The one in escrow is the one used when one offer is accepted. THEN and only then, the investor can write a new check for further offers. Also, as everyone knows or should know, there is no law that says an earnest money check even has to accompany any offer for purchase of real estate. My cash offers usually are not accompanied by earnest money checks BECAUSE they are cash offers. I sell real estate for cash only to other investors.

What part of anything I said or I do is unethical or illegal? Show me where to find it and I might believe you. It is really scary knowing that so many realtors and attorneys are clueless. And by the way, I have found a reputable realtor in this area who is willing and wants to work with me using these "unethical and illegal" tactics as you like to refer to them. There is also a reputable attorney who closes for this realtor under these guidelines. And Carolann, no offense, but I don't need a real estate agent who has 100 hours of training, or ever how many it is now, to guide me in choosing ethical ways to do business. I'm well aware of the laws and I abide by them.

Just so everyone reads the actual email I sent so it can be interpreted correctly, I am copying it to this email for you to re-read. And here it is:

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Shirley wrote:
Renade,

Some realtors don't understand how to work with investors if they've never done so. That's why I asked you. I had one in Anderson and she showed me 2 properties and sent me a few listings and because I wouldn't sign the Exclusive Buyer's Agreement, she said her boss said she was spending too much time on me, and she dropped me like a hot potato so that I didn't even have time to make an offer. But that's her loss. When an agent sends me what I am looking for, I will make multiple offers and most of them will be turned down because as an investor, I have to make low offers so it will be win win for everyone, the seller, the investor, the buyer, and the REA. I won't look at every property because I want to make at least 25 offers per week and I would never have time to do anything else if I looked at that many properties. I work with more than one realtor so I can't sign an exclusive buyers agreement. What I tell the realtors to do is make a copy of the purchase agreement and fill in all the stuff that won't change and when I make an offer, the only thing they have to fill in is the name, address, price, etc. It cuts down on paperwork and saves a lot of time. I almost never put any earnest money down because it will be a cash offer. But if that's an issue, it will be small earnest money deposit that is refundable. I would make a copy of the check and that copy could be used for multiple offers. That's why I don't care for REOs.. The banks want 5% down on everything. Also I use "and/or assigns" on all my purchase agreements and get an inspection period that will be contingent on buyer's approval of inspection. During that inspection period, I do my due diligence and send it to my buyers. If I can't find a buyer or rehabber that wants that particular property, nobody loses anything. But if it's a good deal, the cash buyers fight over them!!

Shirley

Sincerely,
Shirley Phillips
Investor

Sorry this was so long, but I copied the original letter to the agent which started this whole thing. I think she was out of line anyway. It sounds like she conveyed everything the wrong way. So now there is no guessing or wondering what was actually said. I'm done!

Looks like they fired you up good. I cant wait to hear their response back.

Good job

Curtis Fillers
(Charlotte,NC)

Really, those chocolate Easter bunnies don't stand a chance around her this weekend. lol

Trust me. I wouldn't work with either of those real estate agents if they begged me. And I may be wasting my time (I am as a matter of fact), but I had to let them know I am not a person who deals under the table as they obviously were trying to insinuate. And yep, those chocolate bunnies are doomed!!

Shirley

I may or may not get a response. If I do, that's the end of it. I said what I had to say. Now on to more pressing matters. It's Good Friday. I'm going to my daughter's and we are going to dye eggs for my little Brady and Makenzie, ages 4 and 1 1/2 respectively. HAPPY EASTER! and thanks again for the realtor's name!

Shirley

Concerning your reply letter. First off I would not waste the time. Go find a realtor that WILL work with you. Who cares what these guys say?

I would say she has a valid point concerning writing an offer when they have previous knowledge that their buyer on the contract has no money. This is why I NEVER, NEVER reveal my exit strategy to a new agent. All they need to know is I buy with cash. Mine or a private money source. I simply tell them "Don't worry about my money, you MR/MRS agent supply the deal and you will have all the money you need at closing". Don't even get into your exit strategy. You will provide TO MUCH INFO.

In your first paragraph you state you can flip, buy and hold or assign any contract. NOT TRUE. You can NOT assign a contract that is not an assignable contract. Whether it says and/or assigns or not.

2nd paragraph, leave out the moron bit. You NEVER, NEVER want to burn any bridges in this business.

3rd paragraph. Simply say I supply a COPY of an earnest money check with every offer. As soon as the offer is accepted I deliver the actual earnest money check to the agent or title company with in the written time frame per the contract. Also, there is no earnest money law, HOWEVER, the more the earnest money the STRONGER the offer. Cash or not. If it is cash then you have cash for the earnest right? This is just reality.

Paragraph 4. Again, no need for this type of communication. This whole issue arose from failure to establish CLEAR communication. Either she did not understand or you presented it in an unclear way.(from her perspective) Face to face, pleasant but assertive communication would have resolved this issue in a friendly manner.

If after explaining clearly and in detail they still don't want to work with you, thank them and depart friends. REI and realtor world is a small, small world. If they have no clue, don't take it personal! On to the next. This business requires a thick skin that is for sure.

Always communicate person to person when there are problems. Not emails, to much is lost in this type of communication.

These are all just my opinions.

Keep going! On to the next agent,

Michael Mangham
Mentoring/Team Building Nationwide
MD Home Acquisitions LLC

I guess I did reveal too much information.. it's the learning curve I guess, but when you read the rest of this, you might understand why I did in this instance.

I know you can't assign a contract that is unassignable.. that is a given and I don't think it required an explanation. I was merely making a point.

I respect your opinion, but there WAS a need for this type of communication. The next time a new investor (or established one for that matter, wants to do business with this company, they might know a little more about investors. The communication was clear. It was just conveyed inaccurately.. That's why I copied the email in question. Obviously the attorney had not seen my original email.

I may have said some things I shouldn't have like the moron thing, but it's true. Do you want to know why I was really so upset about this agent in particular? She is the mother of my son in law. She has jumped from agency to agency since getting her license a year ago. I think this is her fourth one. So that in itself should tell you something. No, we aren't enemies, but have never really been friends either. She knows what I do, but I have never talked business with her for that very reason....it is extended family, and I have never wanted to do any kind of business with any family member. She is the one who sought ME out when I went on Zillow to look at a property. We see each other maybe twice a year on the kids birthdays. Rather than call me to talk aboaut it or ask me to clarify things, she stirs up a hornet's nest... mine! and gets an attorney involved to boot! She made it personal so I did too. To tell me no real estate agent would take me seriously doing "these types of offers" was very unprofessional on her part because it was an indirect way of saying I did shady deals. If this had been anybody else, I would have dismissed it as ignorance on their part and that would have been it. But the fact that she didn't know the ropes wasn't enough. She tried to push me under the train so I merely defended my position. I am a very laid back person (really I am) but I will not let someone undermine me as she did. She is that type of person by the way but this is OUR first run in since we met 10 years ago when my daughter married her son. And that's all I'll say about that. I did not want to put personal stuff in this post, and I had no intention of bad mouthing anyone concerning this issue. But I take it personally when someone (anyone) questions my work ethics and my morality. If I make a mistake, I will be the first to admit it, but talk to me about it. Don't get people involved that don't need to be involved.

Michael, I do respect your opinion, and I will definitely move on to the next one!

Shirley

So sorry Shirley, that Agent really got you going. Like Michael said, better to simply say, I am a cash buyer. Of course now my agent knows that I use other partners, but she too only tells listing agents and asset manager that I close deals.

Usually agents will come right out and ask me if I'm going to live in the property or sell it. I can't lie and say I'm going to live in it obviously because they would find out anyway. So I usually just say I work with other investors and sometimes they want the deal. I wouldn't have revealed that much information to anybody else of course. I thought I was giving her the heads up because we "knew" each other and she definitely knows that I am not rolling in dough and in a position to be buying up houses. So I guess more than anything I just felt betrayed in a way if that makes sense. In other words, I was confiding in her because it was her and she betrayed my trust.

But it's no big deal. Like I said, we weren't BFFs.. LOL.. But Curtis was so generous to offer me the name of his realtor and that was very generous of her also to accept the offer. So I'm good and Curtis IS awesome!!! Thank you Curtis!!

Shirley

Shirley,

Thank you for letting me know I'm not alone in the waters. I have been interview REA's and some have even hung up in the middle of conversation. I finally have someone who's willing to work with me and see where this goes.

I applaud you for defending your position on your work ethic and morality. I probably would've done the same.

Sparkle

The best way to deal with these morons is this: "CRICKETS". It's an internet term the kids are using nowadays, and it means absolute silence. Stick to FSBO's, and use word of mouth to find investor-friendly agents. I'd be willing to bet this "lawyer" they came up with to provoke you may not even be a real person. He may be a "Guy Smiley" they pulled out of a hat for all you know. If agents are willing, even trained, to preach the law to you to their advantage (which is unethical and fraudulent), don't be surprised if they take a memo from 10 years ago in some other state, change the name, and try to scare you away with it. If that's not the case, so what! They just managed to find someone to parrot their own ignorance. Lawyers are usually sharper than that, unless they've been paid to be ignorant.

I'm all for "lighting up" any idiot that deserves it when they become too loud, way wrong, and innocent people are starting to believe them, but Michael's right. One of these people might "come correct" someday and let you in on a deal that makes you a fortune. Just because they ran their mouth on paper today, don't make them ignore you in the future because you "burned them up" the day after. Remember the following:

1) This is STRICTLY business. It is NEVER personal. Unless one of these "realTORS" tries to kidnap your children or firebomb your house. THEN it's personal.

2) Making or having enemies of any kind WILL cost you money. The worst part is you'll never know where, when, or how much you lost by refusing to play ball with someone.

3) "Living better is the best revenge." In many cases, it's the ONLY revenge that actually works. I learned this the hard way, and I'm finally getting around myself and starting to make this mantra a lifestyle.

4) If you're being dissed by salesmen (let's be honest, if they're not doing deals themselves, then that's all they are), remember the 1st Creed of Sales: "You're only as valuable as your last sale." They judge each other this way, and until you become the next "Matt Larson" of your local market, they will judge you by what you've done so far, too. As they've already shown you, they don't like playing with "new kids." The best way to win them over? Show them you CAN play, and without their "help"!

5) Speaking of Matt, he was never hated more by his local agents until he started succeeding without them. He has an entire post detailing this. If I remember correctly, it's one of the reasons he moved out of his hometown, aside from doing deals other places and wanting to expand anyways.

6) Be nice to who you meet on the way up, so they won't kick and push you if you ever come down. So much of our success is based on other people. Crime never pays, friendship (even acquaintance-ship) always does. Remember that.

7) Never argue with a moron. They will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. Just give them "crickets".

I know it's aggravating to be blocked by ignorance, but how is that different from any other day, from any other endeavor? It's not, so just do your own deals and rise above it. Once you get 2 or 3 deals under your feet, they will be talking about you behind your back, referring to you as someone to keep an eye on, or watch out for. Just blow past them and wave - it's easy! Hope this helped, best of luck to you...

The best way to deal with these morons is this: "CRICKETS". It's an internet term the kids are using nowadays, and it means absolute silence. Stick to FSBO's, and use word of mouth to find investor-friendly agents. I'd be willing to bet this "lawyer" they came up with to provoke you may not even be a real person. He may be a "Guy Smiley" they pulled out of a hat for all you know. If agents are willing, even trained, to preach the law to you to their advantage (which is unethical and fraudulent), don't be surprised if they take a memo from 10 years ago in some other state, change the name, and try to scare you away with it. If that's not the case, so what! They just managed to find someone to parrot their own ignorance. Lawyers are usually sharper than that, unless they've been paid to be ignorant.

I'm all for "lighting up" any idiot that deserves it when they become too loud, way wrong, and innocent people are starting to believe them, but Michael's right. One of these people might "come correct" someday and let you in on a deal that makes you a fortune. Just because they ran their mouth on paper today, don't make them ignore you in the future because you "burned them up" the day after. Remember the following:

1) This is STRICTLY business. It is NEVER personal. Unless one of these "realTORS" tries to kidnap your children or firebomb your house. THEN it's personal.

2) Making or having enemies of any kind WILL cost you money. The worst part is you'll never know where, when, or how much you lost by refusing to play ball with someone.

3) "Living better is the best revenge." In many cases, it's the ONLY revenge that actually works. I learned this the hard way, and I'm finally getting around myself and starting to make this mantra a lifestyle.

4) If you're being dissed by salesmen (let's be honest, if they're not doing deals themselves, then that's all they are), remember the 1st Creed of Sales: "You're only as valuable as your last sale." They judge each other this way, and until you become the next "Matt Larson" of your local market, they will judge you by what you've done so far, too. As they've already shown you, they don't like playing with "new kids." The best way to win them over? Show them you CAN play, and without their "help"!

5) Speaking of Matt, he was never hated more by his local agents until he started succeeding without them. He has an entire post detailing this. If I remember correctly, it's one of the reasons he moved out of his hometown, aside from doing deals other places and wanting to expand anyways.

6) Be nice to who you meet on the way up, so they won't kick and push you if you ever come down. So much of our success is based on other people. Crime never pays, friendship (even acquaintance-ship) always does. Remember that.

7) Never argue with a moron. They will drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. Just give them "crickets".

I know it's aggravating to be blocked by ignorance, but how is that different from any other day, from any other endeavor? It's not, so just do your own deals and rise above it. Once you get 2 or 3 deals under your feet, they will be talking about you behind your back, referring to you as someone to keep an eye on, or watch out for. Just blow past them and wave - it's easy! Hope this helped, best of luck to you...

My mother, God rest her soul, used to sell Mary Kay Cosmetics and even went as far as to earn the coveted Pink Cadillac.

The one thing that I will always remember her saying is that in sales, the rejection and the no's are necessary, even mandatory, to get you closer to your goal. She used to say that if you are not facing rejection or opposition, you are not working hard enough. She used to treat each "no" as if she had offered them a piece of gum and they didn't want it. No big deal. In the end, who really looses out? They do!

Dean said on one of his phone seminars that when you mess up a call, you just learn what NOT to do next time and NEVER do it again. Matt Larson teaches that when you are speaking to an agent, you only reveal that your strategy is to buy, fix and sell and are looking to get a profit of $20-$25k. Nothing more, nothing less.

My advice to you is to move on. Look at this as a learning tool. Focus all of this energy into finding a super star agent. You may have to go through ten or twenty more. It will be worth it. The best revenge is to be successful despite the rejection from others. Don't sweat it. Success is right around the corner. Onward and upward as they say

Good luck to you! I look forward to your next post after you find that incredible star agent that is going to help you on your path to achieving your goals. Focus on the goal, not the obstacles.

Michelle

I was tied up all yesterday and missed all this stuff! Things certainly got steamy!

Shirley, I think after you explained the personal connection in this mess that we can understand more as to why it riled you up so much. Ignorance is frustrating, but betrayal is infuriating. An ignorant betrayer is a %#$@*!

Anyway, I know that you are above all that. Just shake it off.

Reading this makes me miss my Southern roots once again! Southern women can be the kindest, sweetest, warmest women you can ever meet, but you p#$$ one off, and you better get the heck out of the way! I have actually been in that mode a few times myself! LOL!

I can tell that you are in that mindset that you are DOING this now, Shirley, and NOTHING and NOBODY is gonna stop you!

Karen